TelcontraRutz’s Reply 2nd time Great Debate #7

I put TelcontraRutz’s responses in () marks. My reply to Debate #7 which is my second reply in as much days is here for u to see. And I want people to take notice. Tel isn’t posting everything I asked.. and only is respondoning in my opinoin to questions she wants to answer.

What a reply.. very insuffienct when you read it in detail.. let me break down this reply while ignoring the insults on my intelligence yet again.. really sounds like a true Christian. If I can understand it comment.. oh, yeah, that’s very good! So here we go.

(Pauls memory could have been faulty) This acutally is honest, but Pauls memory isn’t faulty based on the promise Jesus made that the Holy Spirit would bring to rememberance all things He said to the Apostles… plus we are not talking about the if Paul could remember what he ate 20 days ago.. but people remember very big things. I remember the birth of each of my daughters why big event. I remember when I got married to my wife 5 years ago and what we did on our honey moon, big event. Big events is what we are talking about here, not small events. And Jews practice using their memories more than what is seen today.

(Jesus refuted handwashing remember) Oh my gosh, go’s to show you this young ones lack of biblical iterpetation.. wonder why she likes to say think for yourself.. I see why, when Jesus wasn’t refuting handwashing, but refuting the Teachers of the Laws extra rules and regulations they added to the already things put in place that God had Moses institute for His people. That is where dangerous doctrine comes from, when people don’t know what they are talking about concerning biblical hermenutics.

(If they can make up the idea of Purgatory to get people to go and fight in the Crusades, then they can make up a lot of other stuff. )

The idea of Purgatory as a Catholic you should know where that idea came from, it’s not made up, but came from the books in the Aprocropha. And if this is to say Paul, or Peter made things up, again, go’s to show how people really don’t know what they are talking about when they are claiming to be a Christian.. i question. Jesus gave them Authority, which part to you not understand? Do you not understand Jesus gave the Apostles the ability to “bind and loose” do you know what that means? Paul said Love is Kind, it doesn’t Evny, Boast or is Proud, Love isn’t self seeking.. and I’ll stop there.. where in that quote Jesus wouldn’t say? That agrees with what the Love of God is all about.. in fact Paul also said Love doesn’t delight in evil? Why would Jesus not agree with that? And obviously you don’t know what being lead by the Spirit means do you. Do you have the Holy Spirit in you? I question that, because you dont’ even sound like a person who is being lead by God.

And I want people to notice.. I asked in the past this young one.. how does one get saved? I also ask this, and don’t avoid answering, because as I’m reading you don’t answer quesitons point by point but skip over some of them. like the one I asked about getting saved. Would you die for Jesus? And another question you avoided. Did Jesus Resurrect? I like to see your reply on that.

(You’re right, the Bible is a historical text, and as a history student, we’re taught to treat every text with some degree of skepticism. I, for one, do not believe that the God of Love told the Israelites to massacre the Canaanites. How do you justify that, Egoeimi? You keep on telling me that my interpretation of the Bible is wrong. So tell me, how can God, who had just given the commandment ‘Thou shalt not kill’, tell His people to massacre the Canaanites, down to the very last child? )

You can have your doubts, that’s ok, and the bible does say “test every spirit to see if it precedes from God or not” so that is biblical, I wouldn’t tell you not to question.. but God did order the war with the Caanites, and I notice u didn’t even bother to look at what I explained.. not all children died, or woman.. Historians who studied the Jewish history of the day, and I mean Jewish Historian, Messianic Jews would tell you that God allowed those that were willing to not fight to come into the camp.. I mentioned Rahab. God shows mercy to those that repent. Now the ones that died.. they fought back, and there is debate on the age of the children. But you would do well to know #1, thou shall not kill in the Hebrew translation of the word is murder. Murder is associated with pre-meditated.. hatred is the underlying cause of murder, when someone commits it, or they have a sinful motive, like someone breaking in to stell someones goods, they murder a person, because their motive was wrong.. killing isn’t a sin if it is for the right purpose. LIike for example, I don’t think you realize that Islam like Al-Queda they teach children as young a 5-8 years old to kill, and if you corrupt a child that early, it’s better that a few die because of what they will do in the end. And in this war with Iraq, children are put in the middle of the road to stop convoys, and teenage girls and men are blowing themselves up. So lastly, God created life, He can take it as He pleases, weather u or I or anyone likes it or not.

(No, perhaps an atheist society wouldn’t be all that peaceful, but you are using your religion to say that you are better than others. That simply spreads more dissension amongst us, and I tell you this; we don’t need it. As I’ve said over and over again, I don’t care what a person believes as long as they don’t ram their beliefs down my throat and can respect me for what I am. Maybe by your standards, Mohammed was not a prophet, but since he turned the whole of Arabia to God, I say he is. I might disagree with him on some aspects, but I respect him and the religion that he set up for God. )

I’m using my religion.. first off, Christianity isn’t a religion in the same sense as others, and i’m shocked that u who claims to be a Christian, u really speak like you are anti-Christian. You didn’t address Jesus’ statement “He said He is the only way” in fact Jesus said people will be condemned if they do not repent and turn to Him. The Apostles taught what Jesus preached. So why are u ignoring that? And please awnswer that. And forcing someone to believe something.. that doesn’t happen LOL.. a person either chooses to listen or they dont. Last I heard no one is being tied up in America to listen to christians preach. Go to Christian chat rooms and atheist are there arguing with the christians, why, forcing their beliefs on christians. I don’t make it a habit to look for trouble, but I do defend my faith as God equips Believers to do. Paul spoke to Greeks who were people who love to reason with their minds, Paul was the Apostle to them.. and he practice apologetics. so that’s what I do. And you to say Mohammad was a prophet is based on your reason, not what the bible says.. Mohammad doesn’t qualify. But if that is how you approach it, then that means anyone can become a prophet if they bring peace.. that isn’t the definition of a prophet. And mohammad lead people away from the God of the Bible which it came b/4 the Quran, and Muslims deny the Resurrection.. so why would he be a prophet when he didn’t lead people to the correct Creator, there is only One Creator.

Jesus didn’t accept the traditions of men.. but Jesus accepted the Word of God. Jesus made it clear that God’s Word supercedes mans words. Your calling Mohammad a prophet isn’t acceptable in Gods eyes.. because that would be your qualification for a prophet is based on them bring peace.. God’s qualification is they speak for God, and what they say that God said will happen in the Future has to happen 100%. You ignore that this is more valide then someone bringing peace. And the Anti-Christ is going to be a man of peace, that doesn’t mean this person whom is yet to come is a prophet because of that quaility.

(No, a person with a PhD might be more knowledgeable, but knowledge does not equal wisdom or intelligence. I have the potential to get a PhD. Just because I haven’t gotten one yet doesn’t mean I am less intelligent. It just means I have less experience in the area. Once again, I recommend a dictionary with clear concise definitions. )

Who said you were less intelligent? That isn’t the issue.. the issue is that you are taking your knowledge and saying that theoligians who study the text, the Hebrew, Greek, Aramiac they don’t know what they are talking about compared to you. That is the feeling a person gets when they speak to you about Genesis. You outright pretext a verse and apply it to the wrong verse in the OT. That isn’t how it works. Because of your lack of theolgical training, u are apt to doing this, which is dangerous. The Paul told Timothy to show himself approved when handing the Word of Truth.. when speaking and teaching people about God, u have to be well versed in understanding, and being lead the HS first and foremost. God set up teachers to teach. That is how God does it, until a person matures enough.. then they are suppose to go out and share and spread the Gospel.. do Ph’d within their respect contexts is important, u just can’t fly by the seat of your pants and wing it, and think that it’s correct. God has a order and gifts people accordingly. And u do know gifts of the Spirit is a real thing.

(In evolutionary terms, the red bioluminescent light might have developed because of mutations in the creatures’ DNA, which caused some changes in their chemical production.)

Now I want you to notice what u just said, and this is a common thing that evolutionary believers do. This one statement sets up the rest of what you said. when u say “might have developed because of mutations” you are repeating what u told me not to do. You have a presuppostion for mutations as if it were true.. and you snuck that right into the introduction to your explinatin for bioluminescent light. There is no truth to that at all, because you were not there to observe if it was mutation that caused it. That isn’t science.. that is faith. Science is based on testing, observation and repeating theories. We know asprin hinders blood clotting.. now we can test, observe and repeat that.. u can’t test what u said that mutations might have caused this in animals in the ocean that far down.

(These creatures use this light for communicating with each other and identifying others of their own species since most other sea creatures cannot detect such a light, which is important for their survival.)

Is this rehearsed? Is this a repeat from someone else? How do you know they used it for communication? Did you ever read up on this somewhere in a nature magazine? B/c if you did, then u are breaking the very thing u told me not to. I didn’t get this question or idea from an article about how something like this developed.. i thought about it.. but this statement you made seems to be right out of a science magazine.. because I don’t know if it was used for communications…. no one does for something that we didn’t witnessed. It could simple be there for an animal to see that deep, or to attrack a mate, or to catch prey.. or it could be a mutation, something wrong in the gene… but this seems to be rehearsed.

(Perhaps the creature with the best light gets the best mates, thus passing on good genes for the next generation.)

Perhaps indicates another guess, because this agian isn’t based on watching the animal millions of years ago.. or are u basing this on what they know now about animals with this? B/c that would again, not be u thinking but repeating what science says is going on today.

(This feature evolved because the first one to show this mutation in its phenotype managed to survive and mate with others of its species, thus passing on the beneficial mutant gene onto the next generation.)

How do I test that? What was the phenotype animal? What does it look like? This is pure assumption to say this feature evolved b/c the first one to show this mutation in it’s phenotype managed to survive. By the way.. how did it manage to survive without light? Did it have special eyes? Which u wouldn’t know, neither would I. But this feature as evolution would lead you to believe started slowly.. no features pop into existence that would be special creation.. evolution teaches slow change.. so prior to this special light some underwater creatures have, how did they see? How did they eat? How did they find a mate to mate with? Were they asexual first? You see I ask question, and u give pad answers like most evoutionist as if it’s that easy without filling the gaps.. i don’t like gaps.. i like completeness.. u are giving me the same old gap theoried evolution like the fossil record full of gaps..

(You said this: more and more of their offspring began to show this trait in the phenotype, and the ones without the red light now have an evolutionary disadvantage, so they began to die out because they couldn’t compete with their counterparts with red light. Give it a few million years, and every single creature of the species has inherited the gene for red light. )

What proof they began to die out? Give it a few million years? All assumption based.. u don’t know when a feature will show up an any animal.. u speak in the presuppostional assumption of long age.. when no evolutoinist knows when the next change will come, no one.. in your faith, it’s guessing that it will take a million.. just like it’s assume millions of years prior.. your answers still begs the question.

(you said: There, I hope you understood that, Egoeimi, because that’s the sort of answer a high school student has to write for their biology exam, and it might be too confusing for you. )

Yeah.. another ad hom attack that was unnecessary.. for what?

(You said:
I believe in free will. All the prophets are free to choose what they want to say and do. They might have to live with the consequences afterwards, but they made choices. They weren’t God’s puppets. You do know that ‘different beliefs’ does not automatically make someone wicked, right? The ‘proper’ beliefs don’t automatically make someone a good person either. It’s what you do that counts. I don’t see how the sheep and goats lecture has anything to do with our present topic. )

“you do know that ‘different beliefs’ does not automatically make someone wicked, right?

You need elaborate. And by definition all are wicked from the start. U must not believe in Origanal sin? The two have nothing to do with anything.. a person is born with a sinful heart, that is why everyone must repent as everyone has that charge according to Acts 17:30. You can be a good person in the worlds standards but in God economy, everyone can’t get to heaven without Jesus. Do you deny that? If you do, then it will continue to make me doubt that u really experience true converstion.. because u can’t say u are a Christian, but then say a person or everyone doesn’t need Jesus. Why don’t u start posting everything I said, so those that follow when u answer the question can see what I brought that up.. it’s simple.. I believe I said that in the context of peace.. but in it’s direct application, sheep represent those that repented and turned to Jesus.. goats are those who choose not to.. Jesus will return to take what is His, and to send those who are not Away. Two differnt Eternal destinations.

(You said:
The way Adam lay with his wife is symbolic of marriage and what happens after it. This is God saying that such an activity is right for a man and a woman who are completely committed to each other, and that people should reproduce for the sake of the species’ survival. There were those who believed in abstinence in those days, and that was not good for survival. Or, it could be a Hebrew myth. )

Very weak answer.. or it could be a hebrew myth. Your job was to show why they wouldn’t be literal people, and that the verse I quoted was equal to the seventy times seven verse u so easily pretext to say that Genesis is a symbolic account when it comes to creation. All moses did was give an account of Adam laying with his wife.. there is not teaching intended.. but an account of Adam and Eve procreating.. this isn’t symbolic or a myth… prove it’s a myth.. or i take that back, it could be a hebrew myth as you say.. so why or how could it be?

And I like how u didn’t answer all the questions.. u do know this is considered to be interllectually dishonest. I asked a lot of things, and I make an attempt to answer every one of your points or attacks. It took me approx. 1 hr to read and type going thru what u said. So give the people who are witnessing this.. everything that is said.. don’t cherry pick what u want to answer and what u do not.

I asked about sin b/4. Sin is a real thing, it’s disobedience to God. Adam sinned, it’s a fact that it’s taught that Sin came thru one man Adam.. but the Second Adam which is Jesus dealt with Sin and defeated it for us who are being Saved. Jesus talked about Adam and Eve when the Divorce issue came up.. that isn’t symbolic people… and I said b/4, if sin didn’t come thru real people but symbolic people then that means sin doesn’t really exist so why would we need Jesus? The Adamic Covenant was insituted with Adam… that isn’t made to symbolic people.

So in all fairness, u are not answering all the questions.. I asked way more.. and I have responded to the best that I can spending hrs on this computer answers your quesiton.. at least return the favor, and not take what you choose.

First, I thought that the Creation Museum was misleading even when I first heard of it in 2007; my brother and I laughed ourselves silly over it. Since the video was correcting the scientific mistakes…well, I can hardly attack the video maker for that. I might not agree with her views entirely, but she wasn’t attacking Christ, simply those who claim to follow him but fail to exercise their common sense and then try to force others to believe exactly what they believe as well. I told you to read more information, as it was pretty obvious by then that you knew nothing about evolution (not that you know anything now).

At any rate, as that screenshot proves, you were simply judgemental and assumed I was arrogant after I told you to read more.

You think calling someone arrogant is not an insult? Conceited, condescension, intolerable insolence; those terms were from the definitions you posted. How are those not insulting? Forget the science textbooks. You’d be better off with a dictionary. Once you’ve managed to figure out what words you can use and what words you can’t in a certain situation, then you can argue.

Must you resort to quoting? Firstly, Peter was human. His memory could have been faulty, and although he was an eyewitness to Jesus’ miracles and teachings, Jesus often refuted the teachings of the Old Testament. Remember the handwashing incident? So, as ArianneG summed up nicely, I believe in what came out of Christ’s mouth, not Paul, Peter, James, Timothy etc. If they can make up the idea of Purgatory to get people to go and fight in the Crusades, then they can make up a lot of other stuff.

You’re right, the Bible is a historical text, and as a history student, we’re taught to treat every text with some degree of skepticism. I, for one, do not believe that the God of Love told the Israelites to massacre the Canaanites. How do you justify that, Egoeimi? You keep on telling me that my interpretation of the Bible is wrong. So tell me, how can God, who had just given the commandment ‘Thou shalt not kill’, tell His people to massacre the Canaanites, down to the very last child?

No, perhaps an atheist society wouldn’t be all that peaceful, but you are using your religion to say that you are better than others. That simply spreads more dissension amongst us, and I tell you this; we don’t need it. As I’ve said over and over again, I don’t care what a person believes as long as they don’t ram their beliefs down my throat and can respect me for what I am. Maybe by your standards, Mohammed was not a prophet, but since he turned the whole of Arabia to God, I say he is. I might disagree with him on some aspects, but I respect him and the religion that he set up for God.

I used to believe that Mohammed was not a prophet, but then I changed my mind after reading about and studying Islam. I’ve been brought up with the Christian faith, but it doesn’t mean I have to accept everything that my elders tell me. Jesus never accepted all the traditions.

No, a person with a PhD might be more knowledgeable, but knowledge does not equal wisdom or intelligence. I have the potential to get a PhD. Just because I haven’t gotten one yet doesn’t mean I am less intelligent. It just means I have less experience in the area. Once again, I recommend a dictionary with clear concise definitions.

In evolutionary terms, the red bioluminescent light might have developed because of mutations in the creatures’ DNA, which caused some changes in their chemical production. These creatures use this light for communicating with each other and identifying others of their own species since most other sea creatures cannot detect such a light, which is important for their survival. Perhaps the creature with the best light gets the best mates, thus passing on good genes for the next generation. The lights can also attract prey that can detect the red light, and that aids the survival of the species as well. This feature evolved because the first one to show this mutation in its phenotype managed to survive and mate with others of its species, thus passing on the beneficial mutant gene onto the next generation. It might not have shown up immediately in the next generation, as the gene could have been recessive, but over a great many years, more of the creatures with bioluminescent red light in their phenotype (meaning that, if the gene for red light was a recessive gene, they were homogenous), more and more of their offspring began to show this trait in the phenotype, and the ones without the red light now have an evolutionary disadvantage, so they began to die out because they couldn’t compete with their counterparts with red light. Give it a few million years, and every single creature of the species has inherited the gene for red light.

There, I hope you understood that, Egoeimi, because that’s the sort of answer a high school student has to write for their biology exam, and it might be too confusing for you.

I believe in free will. All the prophets are free to choose what they want to say and do. They might have to live with the consequences afterwards, but they made choices. They weren’t God’s puppets. You do know that ‘different beliefs’ does not automatically make someone wicked, right? The ‘proper’ beliefs don’t automatically make someone a good person either. It’s what you do that counts. I don’t see how the sheep and goats lecture has anything to do with our present topic.

The way Adam lay with his wife is symbolic of marriage and what happens after it. This is God saying that such an activity is right for a man and a woman who are completely committed to each other, and that people should reproduce for the sake of the species’ survival. There were those who believed in abstinence in those days, and that was not good for survival. Or, it could be a Hebrew myth.

You think I have not been persecuted for my beliefs? Look in the mirror. There stands one of my persecutors. I practise the Christ’s teachings of rationality, love and acceptance, and people persecute me for that.

And here are some random quotes from Egoeimi: I’m in bold.

Experimental Observations Only Yes, Egoeimi. And since creationism cannot be proven by experimentation, what exactly are you trying to say?
”Some lame defenders of evolutionism claim that one needs a degree in biology to refute the origins of life by chance.
All evolutionists need to do is demonstrate how life can naturally come from non-life. Ambiogenesis is not evolution. Get it through your head! That’s why I’ve always said that God created life, and then let the living organisms evolve into the organisms we see today. But only experimental observations please. Leave your imaginations and dreams at the door.” Yes, Egoeimi. Leave your daydreams at the door.

Patrick D. McGuire,
From an amazon.com review of ‘Not by Chance: Shattering the Modern Theory of Evolution’ by Lee M. Spetner

The Big Bang and Guano
”On July 12, an abandoned ranger headquarters at Tahquamenon Falls State Park blew sky-high, sending debris a hundred feet into the atmosphere and alarming campers fourteen miles away.

The explosion now has been traced to bat manure that for decades had been generating methane gas until in mid-July it became highly volatile and – kaboom!

Scientists believe that a similar cataclysm 15 billion years ago gave us the beginnings of the universe, though even scientists cannot account for those early bats, There are possible explanations for how the bat evolved. It was a land mammal to start off with. Mutation created a gene for webbed fingers. This gene got enhanced over millions of years and now code for the wings you see today. and for those of a religious disposition a world created by bat dung is too depressing to contemplate.” You know, no one ever said the world was created by bat dung. What is this argument trying to say?
‘The American Spectator’,
Sept. 1993, pp. 8,9

Ego-eimi, are you still trying to say that you have your own opinions? This random quoting makes you look:

a) too lazy to formulate your own arguments

b) lack the language to formulate your own arguments

c) love the copy and paste function or

d) all of the above

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14 Responses to “TelcontraRutz’s Reply 2nd time Great Debate #7”

  1. “He abused me, he beat me, he defeated me, he robbed me,” in those who harbour such thoughts hatred is not appeased.

    “He abused me, he beat me, he defeated me, he robbed me,” in those who do not harbour such thoughts hatred is appeased.

    Hate is not overcome by hate; by Love (Metta) alone is hate appeased. This is an eternal law.

    The others know not that in this quarrel we perish; those of them who realise it, have their quarrels calmed thereby.

    Though much he recites the Sacred Texts, but acts not accordingly, that heedless man is like a cowherd who counts others’ kine. He has no share in the fruits of the Holy life.

    Though little he recites the Sacred Texts, but acts in accordance with the teaching, forsaking lust, hatred and ignorance, truly knowing, with mind well freed, clinging to naught here and hereafter, he shares the fruits of the Holy life.

    By oneself, indeed, is evil done; by oneself is one defiled. By oneself is evil left undone; by oneself, indeed, is one purified. Purity and impurity depend on oneself. No one purifies another.

    I’d pay attention to the part in bold, were I you. Sounds rather Christian doesn’t it? It might be a surprise to you that it came from the Dhammapada, the collection of the teachings of Sakyamuni Buddha, which are older than those of Christ.

    Has your conduct for today matched that of an atheist?

  2. No it doesn’t and didn’t sound Christian to me at all. To you, but not to me. Discernment is something the Lord gives when it comes to discern weather something is from God or not. And why would I assume it’s Christian? what is Christian? What does that have to do with being older then Christ, in what sense?

    And my conduct matched that of an atheist? OK!

    I’ll quote what the Apostle Paul said

    “2Now it is required that those who have been given a trust must prove faithful. 3I care very little if I am judged by you or by any human court; indeed, I do not even judge myself. 4My conscience is clear, but that does not make me innocent. It is the Lord who judges me.”

  3. ArianneG,

    In your response to incest comment.

    First, there were no genetic imperfections at the beginning of the human race. God created a genetically perfect Adam (Gen. 1:27). Genetic defects resulted from the Fall and only occurred gradually over long periods of time. Further, there was no command in Cain’s day not to marry a close relative. This command (Lev. 18) came thousands of years later in Moses’ day (c. 1500 b.c.). Finally, since the human race began with a single pair (Adam and Eve), Cain had no one else to marry except a close female relative (sister or niece).

    In reponse to your accusation on the world only having two people and populating the earth… I guess you don’t pay attention to the long ages they lived and how fast population growth has happened since 1970’s to today. After all given enough time. Here is the reply for the two people.

    Cain married his sister (or possibly a niece). The Bible says Adam “begot sons and daughters’’ (Gen. 5:4). In fact, since Adam lived 930 years (Gen. 5:5), he had plenty of time for plenty of children! Cain could have married one of his many sisters, or even a niece, if he married after his brothers or sisters had grown daughters. In that case, of course, one of his brothers would have married a sister.

  4. It’s amazing. I get tag teaming in chat land, so you get it in worldpress as well.

    Is it common at people don’t like to debate by themselves but have to have others help them? This makes 3 against one at this point.

    I have been way outnumbered in youtube by the same margin or more and in Chat land even worse.

    I guess it’s true, birds of a feather flock together is a true statement.

  5. Your pardon if that comment came out a little off. When I asked if your conduct for today had matched that of an atheist, I was asking whether your conduct could match up to that of the Buddha, acknowledged one of the most influential spiritual teachers to ever have lived, and considered an example of virtue for all seasons. And it is my honest opinion that even if you believe that you have at least matched him, or surpassed him because of being a ‘true follower of Christ’, you have not reached his level yet, and that honestly none living today are anywhere near what the Buddha was 5000 years ago. Christ could’ve, but He’s not amongst the living in this world now, is He?

    I was simply pointing out that ways to right living in harmony with others and one’s highest, noblest being have been propounded for many years now before even the birth of Christ and after, in many ways and forms by many mouths. From the Vedas, Puranas and the Bhagavad-gita, to the Torah, the Bible and the Qur’an, to the Zoroastrian teachings and the beliefs of the Baha’i, the Guru Granth Sahib of Sikhism, and the traditions of Wicca, all preach similar things: the importance of love, truth, peaceful living and right conduct, non-violence, forgiveness, compassion, loving-kindness, harmonious living, purity within and without, charity and tolerance. Most importantly all the great religions and sages have said that one’s deeds and their fruit are one’s alone and no one else’s. You choose to act, and suffer or prosper thereby in this life or the next.

    To me, those verses from the Dhammapada do reflect the teachings of Christ. As songs may be sung in different modes, yet have the same tune, so do the sublime wisdom of the Buddha and the divine teaching of the Christ reinforce each other. Jesus’ message was simple: Love God, and love one another and help each other. All men are to be your brothers: when you are wronged, forgive those who trespassed. Teach also your children to know Truth, to live uprightly and to fear God.

    So too do all the teachings of the great teachers show us, when one parses through them to their core. The essence of all Scriptures is, in the words of Sai Baba: Help Ever, Hurt Never!

    I should also mention that some few scholars believe that Jesus may have spent time in India in his youth, where he might have been exposed to the Teachings of the Buddha. While on the whole probably untrue, it is an interesting idea.

    Perhaps you’re having a language problem of sorts while reading, because it is highly obvious to me that both the Buddha and Jesus had similar things to say about love, kindness and compassion, and were both humble men spreading a great message for the betterment of mankind. The Work of spreading the Universal Teaching continues into the present. Even now, Sai Baba of India teaches us this:

    Believe in God –for there is only ONE GOD for all mankind, though He may be called by many names.
    Follow sincerely their respective religions and live their daily lives in consonance with the teachings of good behavior and morality.
    Respect all other religions –for no religion advocates the negative and lower qualities of man.
    Perform selfless service to the poor, the sick, and the needy without thought of reward or fame.
    Cultivate in their lives the values of truth, divine love, right conduct, peace, and nonviolence and promote these values among all.
    Be patriotic and respect the laws of the country in which they live.

    Therefore there should be no question of whose religion is better or holier than others. All teach the same thing through different methods—paths vary, the result is the same.

    Discernment is a function of reason. When we choose to engage the world as it truly is, we choose the path of reason as guide to living. We take up responsibility for our acts. Blinded by faith, the world is seen in a radically different light. I don’t care what you choose to believe: that’s only for you to decide, but please, let it be by rational choice! Don’t talk to me about discernment: had you been discerning, you’d not have started with the debate at all.

    As for Cain and incest: I stand by science, and again I say no matter how perfect the code, you can’t argue with the law that says: to have a thriving population, you absolutely NEED genetic variety. Eve being flesh of Adam’s flesh and bone of his bone would have had to have a very similar genetic structure, differences in body parts notwithstanding. Even if you say that God modified Eve’s genes to be totally different from Adam’s, still their children would have been more alike to each other than not, and genetic stagnation is the beginning of species deterioration. And I highly doubt that just because the command was not given, it was still right in the sight of God to be marrying so close anyway. If He had the good of his Creation in mind, he doubtless would’ve known that by the biological laws he set down in living organisms, Man needed a broad enough genetic base to thrive.

    Accusations of tag-teaming: It was not my original intention to jump into this debate, but I simply could not stand silent while you brought forth ill-considered arguments that have little basis in actual scientific reality but instead are all based on a blind faith in your religion so great that it is terrifyingly close to mad obsession–the last time I saw faith this great was in Islamic fundies calling other Muslims to take up arms and go to war against innocents in the name of Jihad and Allah. People like you with your blinkered worldview do but worsen the breach in understanding amongst the peoples of the world. If you feel you’re being ganged up on, feel free to find more to come over here and help you argue. I’m willing to take on all comers, and I’m sure Assentia and Telcontar Rulez would be more than happy to debunk some of the more wrong-headed things you and those of your ilk seem to have embedded in your heads, though admittedly it would likely be a lost cause at this juncture.

    I conclude with these quotes from the Indian holy man whose teaching I mentioned earlier, Sri Sathya Sai Baba:

    I have come to light the lamp of love in your hearts, to see that it shines day by day with added luster. I have come to tell you of this universal, unitary faith, this spiritual principle, this path of love, this duty of love, this obligation to love. Every religion teaches man to fill his being with the glory of God and to evict the pettiness of conceit. It trains him in the methods of unattachment and discernment, so that he may aim high and attain spiritual liberation. Believe that all hearts are motivated by the one and only God; that all faiths glorify the one and only God; that all names in all languages and all forms man can conceive denote the one and only God. His adoration is best done by means of love. Cultivate that attitude of oneness between men of all creeds and all countries. That is the message of love I bring. That is the message I wish you to take to heart. Sathya Sai Baba

    Let the different faiths exist, let them flourish, and let the glory of God be sung in all the languages and a variety of tunes. That should be the ideal. Respect the differences between the faiths and recognize them as valid as long as they do not extinguish the flame of unity. Sathya Sai Baba

  6. telcontarrulz Says:

    Good response, ArianneG.

    Ego-eimi, I replied to your message in a new blog post titled ‘The Great YouTube Debate 11’.

  7. Classic Tag Teaming.

    Tag teaming
    In forums where a bunch of anticreationists can gather, and pretty much do as they please, they will tag team a creationist while debating him (have seen tag teaming as much as 10-1).

    Alteratively, two anticreationists will join at about the same time. They will both select a world view that they feel is true (Christianity) in hopes the mods and admins will be more lenient on them as they debate. Their main goal is to work as a team. One will test the faith of the members of the forum, while the other anticreationist (the team member) will back his posts up by agreeing with them. It can always be told who they are because: they are usually online at the same time, usually post in each other’s threads, and never post in the regular Christian sections (only the creation vs evolution section).

  8. Keep the attention on Jesus. I’m not entertained by the out right ignorance of Jesus.

    Jesus warned us that “false Christs and false prophets” will come and will attempt to deceive even God’s elect (Matthew 24:23-27; see also 2 Peter 3:3 and Jude 17-18). To best guard yourself against falsehood and false teachers – know the truth. To spot a counterfeit, study the real thing. Any believer who is, “rightly dividing the word of truth” (2 Timothy 2:15), and who makes a careful study of the Bible, can identify false doctrine. For example, a believer who has read the activities of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit in Matthew 3:16-17 will immediately question any doctrine that denies the Trinity. Therefore, “step one” is to study the Bible and judge all teaching by what the scripture says.

    Jesus said “a tree is known by his fruit” (Matthew 12:33). When looking for “fruit,” here are three specific tests to apply to any teacher to determine the accuracy of his or her teaching:

    1) What does this teacher say about Jesus? In Matthew 16:15, Jesus asks, “Whom say ye that I am?” Peter answers, “Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God,” and for this answer Peter is called “blessed.” In 2 John 9, we read, “Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.” In other words, Jesus Christ and His work of redemption is of utmost importance; beware anyone who denies that Jesus is equal with God, who downplays Jesus’ substitutionary death, or who rejects Jesus’ humanity. First John 2:22 says, “Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.”

    2) Does this teacher preach the gospel? The gospel is defined as the good news concerning Jesus’ death, burial, and resurrection, according to the scriptures (1 Corinthians 15:1-4). As nice as they sound, the statements “God loves you,” “God wants us to feed the hungry,” and “God wants you to be wealthy” are NOT the complete message of the gospel. As Paul warns in Galatians 1:7, “There be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.” No one, not even a great preacher, has the right to change the message that God gave us. “If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed” (Galatians 1:9).

    3) Does this teacher exhibit character qualities that glorify the Lord? Speaking of false teachers, Jude 11 says, “They have gone in the way of Cain, and ran greedily after the error of Balaam for reward, and perished in the gainsaying of Korah.” In other words, a false teacher can be known by his pride (Cain’s rejection of God’s plan), greed (Balaam’s prophesying for money), and rebellion (Korah’s promotion of himself over Moses).

    For further study, review those books of the Bible that were written specifically to combat false teaching within the church: Galatians, 2 Peter, 2 John, and Jude. It is often difficult to spot a false teacher / false prophet. That is what a “wolf in sheep’s clothing” is all about. Satan and his demons masquerade as “angels of light” (2 Corinthians 11:14), and his ministers masquerade as servants of righteousness (2 Corinthians 11:15). Only by being thoroughly familiar with the truth will we be able to recognize a counterfeit.

  9. I follow what the bible says.. Science is not my religion, it is yours. So if you want to take the side of science your choice, but don’t try to convert me, I’m not interested. I’m hear to defend the position of the Biblical wordview, not a monkey to man theology.

    Here is your first test since the faith of evolution is your thing.

    What is the common ancestor to apes and humans? What did it look like? We know that apes don’t give birth to humans, so the quesiton is did this ape like human give birth to a 90% ape/10% human, did it give birth to 80% ape/20% human, there is no where near the amount of fossils and the common ancestor is missing. If there was a split where some freak creature gave rise to apes and humans where is it.

    Tel, I’ll give you a task. Bats. What is the common ancestor to them? Where did they come from? What did that creature that gave rise to bats and whatever their common ancestor looks like? So while you work on that Bats common ancestor, your tag teaming partner can work on showing me that common ancestor between apes and humans that split off in the direction of humans and apes, since apes don’t give birth to humans, but that common ancestor gave birth to a creature that eventually changed to humans, and the other direction to apes.

    Or is it going to be.. you creationist don’t understand evolution. Don’t want to hear it, just want to see what that common ancestor looked like, the fossils, where are they for both, the record should be filled with slow change.

  10. I’d send you a reply with all that information–however I have a few pressing assignments on and have no time for extreme research. However, I must say that I’ve yet to encounter news reports of the missing common link being found as yet. Fossils for that common ancestor may or may not ever be found, and as yet have not come to light, so far as I know. Then again, just because they haven’t been found, doesn’t mean they didn’t exist. 😀

    The record is filled with slow change and rapid change for other species such as fish, reptiles, etc. Logically mammals too evolved much the same way. It IS frustrating however that due to the way mammals are built, mammalian fossils are difficult to find. It’s not that archaeologists don’t want to find them–there simply may not BE any to find at all. DNA testing does confirm the tracing of the generations back through the ages of the Earth. I don’t have specifics on hand, but will be forthcoming.

  11. Ah, knew that was coming.. and you know what it’s called when people say “doesn’t mean they don’t exist.”

    This fallacy is called Argumentum ad Futuris (argument to the future). Here are a few examples of that concerning being found in the future:

    “Missing links may yet be found to support evolution.”
    “Scientists may soon find a natural cause for the origin of life.”
    “Archeology will one day disprove the Bible.”

    If wishes were fishes, arguments like these could supply a sardine factory. But rational decisions must be based on real evidence, not speculations.

    On the fossil record there is faith and contradiction at the same time. “filled with slow change” not! And that interpetation by the way. Then you say rapid change to cover your tail. It’s either slow gradulistic change, but it can be rapid change, but I had a feeling that it sounds just like what I get out of talkorgins. Goulds P.e you made sure you covered.

    Fustration because of lack of fossils, yeah, that means it’s faith because not everything you want there is there, so take it in faith, Argumentum ad Futuris, yeah, eventually the evidence willl show up.. LOL

    There is no evidence in the fossil record. Even Darwin knew that and it still stands today.

    There is a devolution in some cases (e.g., the number of ribs in the earlier Eohippus is 18 and the later Orohippus is 15). Likewise the number of ribs in the earlier Pliohippus is 19 while the later Equus Scotti is 18. Even most evolutionists have given this up as a proof of evolution. The smallest (dog-sized) animal in the series (Eohippus) is not a horse but a rock badger.

    What do you say about an argument they gave up. Devolution, will there we a future argument against that.

    Anyways, if you are going to prove the faith of evolution to me, show me the research but don’t tell me it’s an Argumentum ad Futuris

  12. And DNA testing is also interpetation. That is the worldview evolutionist work thru, that it proves common ancestory. Thru Creationist worldview it proves a common designer. Similairty in the DNA is what we expect to find because God Created all animals and us, and the blueprint is the DNA.

    But that doesn’t mean there was a common ancestor apes and people split from, because #1, you don’t have it, and that go’s for all the fossils out there. You don’t have a common ancestor for fish/amphbians, where is the common ancestor for bats as I challenged Tel with? Where is the common ancestor for Starfish, seahorses, how about jellyfish? How about reptile and birds, where is that common ancestor and no more hoax’s.

    I’m not interested in magical faith, science isn’t about that, there should be no begging the question when it comes to something like this.

  13. Among the few alleged “missing links” found, Coelacanth (a sturdy fin fish from the Devonian Period) is not half-fish and half-reptile. It is 100 percent fish. None were ever found with feet evolving on them. In fact, they have been found alive today and look identical to those in the fossil record of some 60 million years ago

    And you know what. A person like myself gets sick of the excuses when something shows up that contradict the faith. Some that is said to not exist then when something is found it’s ad hoc explained away.

    No matter what you can’t even falsify macro-evolutionary faith, and how’s that for science.

    And there is 6 definitions of evolution which no one likes to talk about. LOL

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